Annie Hirsch joins Lacey on Talk of Love for one of the smartest and most fascinating conversations in the series, breaking down Frank the Entertainer in a Basement Affair from the perspective of an artist, writer, and self-aware reality TV experimenter.

A huge fan of VH1 and 51 Minds, Annie explains how she intentionally played up a kooky, hyper-sexualized character in her audition just to get cast—then abandoned the act once filming actually began and the reality of the experience hit her. She talks about using the show as research for performance art, why reality TV is both fake and real at the same time, and how the whole experience felt like "thrilling trauma." She also reveals that she had a boyfriend at the time, reflects on unexpectedly liking Frank as a person, and shares how the show informed her writing and art afterward. It's sharp, funny, and wildly insightful.